Chief Philip C. Asiodu is an administrator of immense repute. A former Secretary for Petroleum; and Permanent Secretary in the Federal Civil Service, he was described by the South African Marxist professor, Garvin Williams, in the book, State and Society in Nigeria as one of the Super Permanent Secretaries, who with former Head of State, General Yakubu Gowon, executed many projects that made Nigeria great in those days. One of those great minds that took the mantle of the civil service from the British Colonial Government, Asiodu is a founding father of the Nigerian Conservation Foundation (NCF). He has been involved in the conservation efforts globally and the protection of the Nigerian environment. His role in conservation efforts in Nigeria and the creation of Parks across the country are well documented in the book: Myth and Reality in the Rainforest, written by Professor J. F Oates. The son of a customs officer during the colonial era, Asiodu was born in Lagos. He grew up in Calabar and studied at the university level in the United Kingdom. A man with lucid intellect, urbane, frank, unassuming and witty, Asiodu was once a Presidential aspirant. Every attempt to sit Chief Chief Asiodu down for a chat on his many roles in conservation had proved futile for many months, until the head of Scientific Committee of the NCF, Philip Hall, facilitated it. During the over two-hours chat in presence of Hall, the atmosphere was electric. But he spoke on a wide range of issuesfrom conservation, environmental protection to administration, issues of corruption and politics in Nigeria. He also reflected on the coup de tat of January 15, 1966, the counter coup of July 29, 1966, the civil war (1967-70), the Murtala Muhammed/Obasanjo coup of July 29, 1975; whil also tracing the retrogression and degeneration of Nigeria; and offering suggestion on how to make the country work again. Excerpts:In those days in Nigeria, people did not take the issue of conservation very seriously. You were in the civil service then as a top government functionary. How did you come into the issue of conservation How did you begin to take it seriouslyWell, I dont know but I will say that right from youth, I always liked the flowers, woods, gardens. I liked environment that is green and nice. And also briefly as a young boy, I went to Hope Waddell Training Institute in Calabar and there it was a very comprehensive type of education. You know, they had people in Hope Waddell Training Institute in the normal Grammar School and those going to be teachers, painters, and agricultural people and so on. Everybody in the school was encouraged to plant a garden. I remember a teacher coming all the way to my fathers new place to help us lay out gardens. Maybe that early things rubbed off on me to see how flowers and plants grow. And then I went on to the university, on excursion to parks. It was so pleasant. And it was so pleasant being in the middle of London in those parks. The most famous being Hyde Park, Kensington Garden, and going to Wimbledon. Before LagosOf course, Lagos in our days... when we were young too, we had Ikoyi Park, where I played and my children played. Unfortunately, my grandchildren cant play there because it has disappeared. We had Abule-Nla in Ebutte Metta, even with some ornamental lakes. But its now turned to a police and prison barracks. Of course, the whole of Qnikan, King George The V area was a park. Temporary buildings of Kings College were built there. But opposite us was a park with one of those merry-go-round slides.But I must say later on in life, around 1960, I think, came out that study by the Club of Rome in which they identified all the problems that we are dealing with now in terms of ecological degradation. But not everybody paid much attention to it. It was however well-publicised. I read about it and it struck me. So, when much later, Chief S.L. Edu was looking for people to start the Nigerian Conservation Foundation (NCF); I was an enthusiastic convert. He of course, through business, had become associated with the Dutch establishment. He got to know Prince Bernard.Prince Bernard was then leading the Worldwide Fund for Nature. He got him into the international board, and he of course, realised he was a member of the international board talking about environment. But in Nigeria itself, one of the most challenged in terms of ecological problems and degradation there was nothing like that. This was his motivation. Then few of us including people like Philip Hall, who had been active in Maiduguri, and his friends joined. This is partly because of my early acquaintance with gardening and love for forests and wildlife generally; then becoming acquainted with the report of the Club of Rome and impending disaster for mankind if we continued the way we were doingwasting resources because of the pattern of development that evolved.When the British were doing industrial revolution, the forest looked imperishable. There was enough wood to melt iron, and so on and so forth. You could go anywhere to get wood. Of course, England had lost its forest cover. America then continued in a more wasteful manner in the use of natural resources. But now the population has grown... When I was a young boy, the worlds population was under two billion, but today, people on earth are more than six billion. We dont have resources to waste. In fact, as the recent findings show, we have almost crossed the Rubicon in terms of climate change and global warming with the disastrous consequences that will follow.I think this is the reason I came into conservation. I probably stumbled into the fact that man has to change its attitude to become a conservationist, so that this habitat we have, the planet earth, can continue to sustain mankind for many more generations to come. If you look at the Nigerian Conservation Foundation (NCF) in Lekki, which you and others started in early 1980s, the state of the area then and the level of development now, what comes to your mind That area was pristine forest then. Whats always on your mind whenever you look at Lekki now with the wanton destruction of the ecosystem and degradation of landWell, it could have just been another sprawl of houses without parks, without lakes etc and it could have been a disaster. But for the fact that Lagos is built around Lagoons, Lagos would have become unlivable. All that we have now as open space are the Lagoons. Unfortunately, reckless reclamation is going on. Well in the case of Lekki, when I go through there, and I look back, lets say we were extremely lucky that at that time we were talking, people had not quite and did not quite envisage the explosion of development along the Lagos to Epe corridor because we got that land for nothing practically. The compensation we paid was minimal precisely. If we had tried to talk about that 10 years later, with all these speculators, some of them money launderers, coming in and shooting up the price of land everywhere and of course the family, dreaming of fortune they might make; it will be a different thing. That is so in many cities, if you try to put the property value to the Hyde Park, Kensington Garden or Central Park in New York, surrounded by those fantastic development or in Paris, it is inestimable. But I think we are lucky in Lagos that we have Lekki. The message really is that before the rest of Lagos State is swallowed up in endless development unrelieved by green belt, maybe we should quickly agree with Lagos in one or two areas where we could quickly recreate Lekki, replicate it nationwide. It is absolutely necessary to do it now because of future generation and posterity.It was that great London man who, around 1854 or so, insisted that every borough must have a common. And thanks for his movement. I have forgotten the name of the movement.Now, you have it in every borough in London, the Hampstead, the Regents Park and Hyde Park. So, when you are in London, big city as it is, you dont have the feeling that you are being choked that you feel when you are in Central Lagos; or Manhattan in New York, because when you go one mile or two there is some greenery.I was Deputy Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Lagos Affairs in 1964. I have the map of Victoria Island as it was laid out. We had similar approach. Every block had a little square for children to play. All that, many military governors after the coup de tat of July 29, 1975, had given away, and some civilians too also gave them away. So when you see, Mr. so and so close, it was not so designed. That was plain space, mis-allocated to somebody who has put up some giant structures there. In fact, in the original map of Victoria Island, the run-off factor, that is water that is to be drained away was only 40 per cent. Now, because of the concreting of where green spaces were to be, it is 90 percent. That is why you find that even the drains cant cope. Even the drains that were designed for 40 per cent are choked up by refuse and all that. Thats a different matter.That coup detat of July 29, 1975 was very bad in terms of land use planning for Nigeria because just before the coup, the Federal Government had appointed Doxisadis of Athens, Greece to come and help us with our Regional Planning. It had been accepted by all the States that we must have forward-looking land use planning. Immediately after the coup, that was cancelled. And everybody went into this higgledy piggledy development. I, for instance, before the coup was involved with the committee that approved the plans for FESTAC; which as you see it today, is only one quarter of what was planned.FESTAC was to extend up to the blackwater lagoon. We insisted on a 200 metres green belt running along from Lagos to Badagry. This was put there to ensure where you would have had the playing fields, the open spaces. All that is gone! Churches, and other illegal structures are there. You then say to yourself, if this continues in 50 years time, what will this place look like People would probably have to abandon it to go to a decent establishment. See the contrast between the Victoria Garden City and what is happening in many other parts. Its the same terrain, but just a little patience to lay it out.The colonials, for instance, did that in Ebute Metta, and Yaba. Yaba used to be called Garden City. They laid out everything. We have to do such a thing. Not very elaborate. If its a square grid arrangement like New York City, do it but identify. If you have no money to pave the streets immediately, plant some trees, demarcate clearly where streets should be. It must be regulated. If it is 10 years or 20 years that the money is available, then you pave the streets. But you must lay out the plans on a piece of paper. You should indicate where the streets will be, the open spaces, etc. And you must have a non corrupt civil service which ensures that those plans are conformed with.Its really a great shame. Our leadership must begin to think in terms of the future because when money comes but you are obliged to live in a slum. I have been involved back home in Asaba. They want to lay out their land and sell as plots. They want to get a maximum number of plots. And they laid out streets which are only 12 feet wide. And I asked: what sense Your children, my children in future are going to have cars. They are going to invite people to visit them. How do you pass You must have a road which will allow cars to be parked on either side with free flow of traffic. This simple concept, they tend to forget, partly out of greed, partly, because they dont care. They think of the present and they are not projecting into the future.Fifty years ago, how many cars were being parked outside the house in Ebutte-Metta You must look ahead.So, at that time it was the right thing we acquired Lekki when we got it. We led a delegation to Governor Mudashiru... Mudashiru was a good Governor. He spoke about restoring Ikoyi Park. I had taken my children there. I had gone as a child. And he said; oh, yes. There was 60 acres left. He was a truthful man and he couldnt have been lying. Unfortunately, when we went there, only four acres were left. Without the Governor knowing, maybe he had permitted 20 acres, but they laid out everything. You see the bad, funny and wicked sense of humour which we sometimes exhibit in Nigeria; having abolished a beautiful Park and they have no Park anymore, they called it; Park View Estate!View which park There we are. We also led a group to Alhaji Lateef Jakande. At that time, nobody had started to go to that valley opposite the Secretariat. We could have created a 500 acres Park. And I got the impression that Park is for Bourgeois people. It isnt! The Lords in England, if he is well descended from the landed gentry, probably has a country home on 2,000 acres with his own ornamental lakes and all that. The Duke of Westminster, one of those who own lots of land in Mayfair and all that doesnt go to Hyde Park. Its you and me. Its ordinary people who dont have those gorgeous country homes that enjoy the Parks. So, to tell me that Parks is for Bourgeois people was strange. I have been to Moscow many times. I have been to places like Bucharest to see how much land the Communists turned into Park land. People who dont have palaces must enjoy in the Parks. We really have to think.Unfortunately too, see how our middle class and rich people build their houses. They build to the fence, no garden, nothing. Imagine if people oblige to have just 15 feet of green verge and each house on the street must have a tree planted. Come back in five years and you will see avenues of trees with birds and butterflies around. And it will cost nothing. Dont you think its the psyche; the mentality of the typical Nigerian... this aspect of running away from nature tha is causing chaosI think so many things are mixed up. First, the quality of education is important. As I said, when you were in school and you were asked to plant things and love nature, it rubs on you.The general trend now is for chaos and iconoclasm. I think we just have to pray to have a leadership that wants to reconstruct Nigeria along sustainable, dignified and decent lines. It starts from the schools. Even from the school, right fro the beginning, you are tauught to love nature, gardening. I remember even though there was official zoo, for instance, in Lagos, there was this Chief Biney. He had his zoo in Lagos and we children were taken from our various schools to the zoo.From the schools again, we have to get pupils to love nature in its broad definition before they even begin to learn the economics, the value of maintaining a viable environment. Then the attitude of the so-called new wealthy-people is something. What is the point You already have a decent layout. There is land but you are in such a hurry. You now force your friend in government to enter a Park, cut it off and allocate it to you. It just shows we are not educated. We are bush people, we are uncivilised and we also do not accept that we should do something which leaves a beautiful legacy. Everything is me now. Its a question of the leadership and the elite, re-educating themselves somehow and begin to embrace this tenets of a civilised society. There is no external factor we can blame for it. Where The Degeneration Began... There has been deterioration from after the civil war when things were destroyed. Then money came suddenly from oil into Federal hands. Everything was to consume and destroy. States came cap in hand begging for money. The pride of patiently constructing something wasnt there. This new ethos of just loot, do what you like with impunity sets in. But a nation cannot be built on that. In fact, we are reaching the end of the road. In fact, sadly, in terms of living and quality on life, at independence in 1960s, not more than 25 percent of Nigerians were below poverty line. Today, its more than 70 percent.I remember, for instance, just around independence time; there was this little story that is illustrative. There was this little teacher teaching in a secondary school, not a graduate. He did what was called a Senior Teachers certificate. He lived in a well-decorated bungalow. Not in Lagos; it was in Benin City. Every morning the steward would ask him, Master what should I cook today And he would answer, Its chicken! And he would give him money and he would go to the market to buy a chicken to kill. Everyday, he would ask for a chicken again! The steward asked; Sir, cant you eat something else. All the chickens have known me in the market and as soon as I entered the market the chicken would start to run away. In those days, there was nothing like a slaughtered chicken. As soon as he came, the chicken started running because he was going to kill one of them. But thats not the point of the story. The point of the story is that a young graduate teacher in 1960 could afford to buy a chicken a day and eat. Now, how many of our graduate workers can honestly say that they can afford to buy a chicken in a day and eat. Even professorsYes. It shows what has happened. I remember as a young officer in 1957, you had your flat, you had your car. We were paid 50 pounds a month. It was enough. You maintained your car and lived well, decently. Every weekend, youll go to dance and relax yourself and so on. You took your car and off to Ghana. That kind of life is beyond the average Nigerian, except for the few, very well-paid banking or oil executives. Civil servants, if they stuck to civil service pay and dont involve in these rampant corruption cannot think of that. We have made things much more difficult. There is mismanagement of the economy, mispricing of things. Again, if you want to buy land, the amount they would demand is beyond you.I was thinking about this very recently. We have to sit down and redesign income policy, address our pricing structure, try to get things under control. We are allowing a few people with money from sources they dont know to distort prices. This makes it impossible for people to remain honest or not try to cut corners.In spite of it, poverty in many ways is anti conservation because you are so desperate that you want to do anything to keep alive. One Indian leader said at a time that poverty is the greatest polluterYes, Look at those poor chaps that were recently shown on television, who had cut petroleum pipeline. They had created a lake where they could go and scoop. This is similar to what happened in Jesse in 1998. All it takes is for two buckets to create a spark and in that place thousands of people would be burnt because that place is saturated with petroleum ready to explode! When the petroleum gas exploded in Jesse people thought if they dived in water, the fire would be off but it followed them. So, it was terrible. Except for extreme poverty, who would take such a riskAgain, these are the things. We have had unfortunate changes of government abruptly but the mentality of the people who came was not wishing to debrief those who were before. They engaged in outright condemnation.If not for the coup of 1975, it was our intention; we had started the first pipeline for products which they then negotiated and then implemented in Port Harcourt, Maiduguri, Lagos, Sokoto that latest by 1982 or 1983, every state capital should be linked by pipeline products so that these tankers would be confined to maybe 50 kilometres radius to the depot. You dont go to London, and see road tankers carrying fuel from London to Edinburgh or New York to anywhere. But then you did a coup; and you abandoned many plans which were there, and you had nothing to substitute. You were busy pursuing other things!We must thank God we are returning, I believe seriously to the principle of planning. If you talk vision 2020, you must define it. And you must find how to get there. Which means you must have specific, time dimension plans, programmes and projects that will take you there. And under this, under the Federal and State governments, there will be three medium plans: 2010-2013, 2014-2017, 2018-2021, from which you will derive your capital budget. I hope in the first -2010-2013, it will address the problem of product distribution; and, of course, I hope within the next year, we would have arrived at deregulation and start to use appropriate pricing mechanisms to move private sector investment to a more efficient distribution of these sort of things. When I was younger, I remember Mr. Allison Ayida... and we used to learn about you in civics and later history as being amongst the super Permanent Secretaries in the government of General Gowon. At that time, before the coup of 1975, I remember the country used to have the fouryear National Development Plan though I was small in the secondary school. Nigeria then had a focus. There was planningYes. After every budget, there would be well-planned policy. I went into the civil service as a 16 years old boy as a clerical officer. I knew all the civil service rules, the General Order (GOS) and passed the exams before attending the University at Ife. But now, I feel alarmed, and unhappy that we cant tell our children we once had a decent and orderly country.Yes. How do you think we can re-make Nigeria; for instance, to having plansThis is what I said; that we abandoned planning in 1975. They made one plan 1980 to 1985 it was never implemented. Now, first, Obasanjo talked about it. YarAdua spoke about it and Dr. Goodluck Jonathan has continued. This now obliges us to turn to planning .You see, it s very sad; the British before independence after the World War II had a 10-year-plan for Nigeria because this was part of the policy of the Labour Government to start preparing countries towards independence.And that plan was from 1948 or so. When we became independent, we had the first National Plan in 1962.It later on extended till 1968. And under that plan, the economy was growing at six percent. Then we had the coup de tat of 1966 January, the civil war and all that. Even before the civil war ended, in 1969, we had an All National Conference, which brought the United Nations people, foreigners, trade unions, civil service, and ex-politicians under Chief Simeon Adebo. At this conference, they elaborated post civil- war plan. The civil war ended in 1970 and we introduced the plan from 1970 to 1974.There was plan from 1975 to 1980. As soon as the war ended, growth continued and we averaged between 1974/1975 11.75 percent growth per annum. You imagine if the coup of 1975 July had not stopped that and we grew like that for the next two decades, we would be an African lion today amongst the Asian Tigers.And it was in 1975 to 1980 that we diverted because we now did a coup it doesnt matter that they changed the head of government. But the sad thing is that the two leaders of the administration that followed, Murtala Muhammed and Segun Obasanjo were Ministers (Commissioners) under the Gowon Government that approved the 1975-1980 Plan. What was the use of abandoning it Just to discredit it. And that plan was one that was to start the genuine transformation of Nigerias economy because the first emphasis was on Agro allied industries. We had this pulp and paper; we had rubber plantation feeding the tyre factories and all that; pulp and paper because we were able to pulp specially planted species there. Melina grew within seven years. In Scandinavian it took 25 years. See the comparative advantages that we had. And in terms of long fibre for beautiful writing paper, we were able to have tropical conifers planted in Jos. They are there being used as fire wood. As for the Melina, it was the World Bank assistances throughout the Western Reigion. I was in and all these areas had the trees but they are now being used for firewood because they are too big for pulping. And even Shagari in 1980 or 1981 commissioned Iwopin, near Okitipupa. Never completedIt was already 90 per completed remaining 10 per cent, it was abandoned. As for the Jebba Paper Mills, we had brought in the Bella Brothers as technical partners. At the same time, they had the same size of paper mill taken to Kenya. We brought them here around 1960/1967. In 1980, as a retired man, I visited the complex in Kenya, they had expanded four fold, and they were exporting paper. Ours had been run down for no purpose.We had also good plans with some foreign companies that Nigeria would become self sufficient in sugar latest by 1985. Nigeria was to be the quarantine for different sugar canes in West Africa. We had to identify more than six sites for sugar development. I selected the sites in the north and there was possibility of expansion in Bacita. There was to be a site in Bakolori. We are now spending millions of dollars importing sugar. And sugar is a great thing for food processing industry etc.In the case of cassava, we had a company in Boston advising us. They were telling us about the merits of cassava at the same time they were telling Thailand. And when you look at 1970-1975 Plan, there was an integrated cassava plant to be based in Rivers State to process from cassava to starch to glucose and other derivatives, because starch is a miracle thing. You use it for paper, for paint, for food, for anything. And 25 percent of cassava is starch; one excellent source.So, this is what we lost by abandoning plans. Let alone the LNG. We had approved two plants. Three trains in Bonny, three trains in Delta in April 1975. Unfortunately the coup occurred in July. If it had been delayed one year, we would have had LNG on stream by 1980. Again, I was instrumental with Chief Ernest Shonekan. It took us a decision we had to take in 1993, painfully, to reduce Nigerias ownership from 60 percent to 49 percent because between 1975 and that time, each Minister will come and sack the board, then the projects were forgotten. But by the time we became 49 percent... one of my successors, Dan Etete purported to sack the board, and they said; you can only remove your own people. Otherwise, today, we wont have LNG; see how it moved from two trains commissioned in 1999, its now six trains. You imagine if we had three trains which would have been ready in 1980. The gas gathering which would have occurred there when it was relatively easier would have enabled us to launch genuine petrochemical plant.Nigeria should be the supplier to America of plastic shoes, plastic toys, sporting goods, not Korea. Korea is 11,000 miles away and no raw material; we have all the raw materials and only 3,500 miles away. And we have the same two hands, one brain; so, if you are to document the disaster which this impatience and unfortunate combination of ignorance and arrogance in deciding to jettison things well-thought-out for no reason; no patriotic reason what it has cost Nigeria and Africa, it is very sad.But there is no reason dwelling on the past. We have the opportunity. Its better late than never. The thing is, have we learnt the lessons Will we get the people with all humility to say, look, let us go back to work The average Nigerian needs work. Their children, your children, my children may be abroad but by the time they are 45 years, they will feel frustrated because their juniors whom they taught will become the presidents of the corporations. Its not their home. By that time it will be too late to pick up books here. So, what we have to do is to have a peaceful transition this year and to go back to address the issues on rule of Law, sanctity of competitive award of contracts, quick adjudication of disputes, zero tolerance for corruption at the regulatory level.When people come, you have promised incentives, administer it in a day or two, No! They will ask the investor to come today, come tomorrow and the men start getting messages that someone needs money. To hell with you! The world does not revolve around you. They go elsewhere. If we address these issues and how we use whatever money we have judiciously. We have look into the problem of Power by using appropriate tariffs so that anyone investing in power will make his money. He will then release what is going into subsides to address our educational system. We must have good, quality education againfree up to secondary school level.These are the only ways of moving a country forward. These are things which could happen. You are quite correct. We had those National Development Plans and there were sanctions when we were in the civil service, if you broke the rules you get sanctioned. The financial instructions were clear. You may talk these big jargonstransparency accountability... As a 16-year old Clerical Officer in the Ministry of Health in those days, I was managing the cash and paying people as at when duePrecisely; and you didnt think for a minute you should take money for yourself. In our days, when you got a government LPO, it was like currency. Now, you get LPO and you go there and they say; not cash-backed you know. And someone is there winking to you that if you could only make available 20 percent of it, the cash will come! That should stop and it can be stopped easily.We are eminently a governable nation. All it requires is for the man at the top to say enough is enough. It doesnt matter by what way and agreement they have to come to power. We must pray for divine accident that having come to power, as a patriot, we must get Nigeria moving again; and this is not allowed. Once that is clear and examples given, people will follow you. Remember we fought the civil war; there were some atrocities committed; people were saying by the time the Ibos were defeated or Biafra was defeated, there would be all kinds of lynching and trialsbased on what happened in Spain and America if you have read Gone with the Wind; Carpetbaggers. But our war ended and Gowon said, No victor, no vanquished. Reconciliation! Reconstruction! Rehabilitation! Didnt we all fall in line immediately Years later, when there was so much indiscipline after the coup of 1975, destruction of the civil service, checks and balance, things were looking chaoticcame Buhari and Idiagbon. They said War Against Indiscipline and that people must queue; people must clean the streets. Didnt they do it They did itSo, its possible: only that the leader should lead by what he preaches. Why Gowon Was Better Than All That Came After Him.. General Yakubu Gowon came to power when he was 32 years oldYes. Now, we have leaders w ho believe if you are below certain age, you are inexperienced. But at that time, how were you able to relate with General Gowon. I was at Professor Dora Akunyilis sons wedding and I saw the General. He was the Chairman and he was his usual self, eloquent and unassuming. How did you find him in those daysWe were all about the same age to begin with. There were other older people like T.O Lawson, S.O Wey and all that. The point is that Gowon came from a very decent family background. He had gone to school. He had learnt to respect people. He had no blue chips on his shoulders. There is nothing as bad as having somebody in power, with all sorts of complexes and subconscious scores to settle. He takes it out on the nation. Gowon didnt have that; thats number one. Two, he had also a good sense at the time. What happened He didnt plan a coup to become Head of State nor did Ironsi before him. He found himself there. For two days Nigeria had no government but the civil service managed to keep normalcy. Then, we went to the coup-makers; we asked: what do you want They had thought of vengeance, kill as many Ibo officers as you can, blow up Carter Bridge in Lagos and go. Very simplistic! You dont expect anything more from corporals and all that. We sent a delegation to the Cantonment where they were. So much was the prestige of the civil service at the time. When the delegation came; they asked; who are you Which tribe you be We said: we were civil servants. That was enough. They let people in. We had the dialogue with them and said, look, even if you want to go to the north, look at the single track railway that was one of the means of transportation, you must be an authority to put signal to indicate that you and your family are coming, so that the other train should wait at the other station. If there is no authority, how do you do it You will perish! Its as simple as that. There is no chaotic way of breaking up a country; so we must have dialogue. Even if you want to negotiate a different constitution you must have authority.Anyway, it became obvious that its only Gowon that they would obey. They wouldnt talk to Ogundipe who was number two to Ironsi. Gowon was Chief of Staff, Army, number three, so to speak. Fine! Before then these army officers used to see usAdministrative Officers (AOS). Gowon, in fact was the last officer who knew at what level you have to reach in the army before you were asked to join civilians in the Joint Civilian and Army Council.All these people, Murtala, Obasanjo were not seniors enough. They were used to receiving orders from senior fellow military officers. If they then believed that the army thinks for itself, so sad because they had not read people like Churchill who said that war is too serious a matter to be left with Generals. And in any case, the logistics involved in equipping, feeding, creating movement for the expansion of the army from 10,000 to 200,000 required by the civil war were only accomplished by the civil service. And Gowon knew what it was. When they did the coup in January 1966, Ironsi wanted Permanent Secretaries to become Ministers, we said no because it was a temporary arrangement, we cannot be Ministers.We now had the uncomfortable job of not only advising behind the scenes as we used to do, but by having to explain to the public what the ministries were doing, hence people now saw civil servants now looming large and ready targets for whatever.So, we now took him on, you are going to be Head of State, you are going to confront international press. We produced about 20 or so questions which they may ask him and appropriate answers. I am glad to say no question was asked which had not been anticipated. That can give you the background to his relationship with the civil service.Of course, we drifted from one crisis to the other. One or two of us would meet with him and two or three senior military officers everyday for the three years reviewing reports and agreeing on what should be done. Sometimes the arguments may become quite intense. But I must say one thing about General Gowon: he was patient, he would listen to all that was said, and a decision would be taken and we would go ahead. However reluctant he might be, if we thought there was crisis, we were able to access him, offer details and after that, decisions would be taken.All went on properly under H. A. Ejueyitche, who succeeded Bode Wey after the counter-coup that killed Ironsi. Bode Wey had been Secretary to Sir Abubakar Tafawa Balewa and Secretary to Ironsi, he felt enough was enough, he withdrew, and Ejueyitche succeeded him. He said he would go as soon as the civil war ended. After the civil war, he stepped down. Abdul Attah stepped in. Tragedy struck when he died prematurely. He had enough understanding that the drift we had with General Gowon for three years when things were not what it used to be would not have occurred. That occurred because we now had a Head of Service, C.O Lawson, a friend of mine who was chairman at my wedding in 1964. We were friends. But when he became Head of Service, he didnt want to do a fire brigade approach that we used to have. If you felt that something was so wrong, beyond the rules he would say No. Head of State can call him anytime. And he was not going to take the initiative to think that something was important as policy if he didnt call him.That is what explained the change in decisiveness towards the last two or three years before the unfortunate coup that removed General Gowon.I do not mind, if they did a coup, and asked 10 or 12 of us to go, but to have gone and hounded about 10,000 civil servants in three months without due process without query... With immediate effectOnly to find that it was wrong but things were destroyed.And those who used to be custodians with authority were no longer there. No checks and balances, then the financial instructions (FI) were disregarded. Then later on Babangida came with fillip to say no more Permanent Secretaries again and Finance officers.Then ministers will hire and fire for which we are still suffering. In fact, I am involved with a group, trying to insist that the government should appoint a new comprehensive review panel to redefine the nature of the civil service, structure, recruitment, training etc and to be rebuilt. Because without a proper civil service, government may have the best blueprint, the people will not benefit from it. There is no substitute to a civil service that is professional and honest. It may not have the same authority and glamour as the one we abandoned but at least it should be competent and honest enough to be able to do what has been decided efficiently even if it is recruiting contractors to do the job, recruit it transparently and properly and insist on performance and not through graft such that allows a contractor to be paid when he has performed below specification or performed not on time.Let us talk just another bit of ecology and conservation. I was in Cancun, Mexico for the last UNFCCCIts amazing the way the Mexicans maintained their green areas. They have a long stretch of hotels along coastline without destruction of the ecosystem. And there is nothing they have in Mexico that we dont have in Nigeria. We dont have the will and appropriate focus hereEven here, where we are in Victoria Island, since 1948 is now 100 metres to the beach. It used to be about three kilometers to the water of the Atlantic Ocean. That we have lost since my time. Because when the mole was created to have a passage to the Lagos harbour, sand started building up on the West and erosion in the east. And long ago since 1948, they said build a brick water so that the waters strength is broken.This was to create more or less, a parallel lake and then the erosion of course would be less. We could then personally give leases to those who want to develop resorts in that place. But oblige them that within two or three years they must build a mole of at least 500 metres out, so even the sand that still comes can now be trapped. We can then build series of private beaches all the way until it reaches a point near the Niger in Escravos area. By now, we would have had 200 miles of golden beaches.Its not the type you find in other parts of the world, or in Europe or Tunisia. With political stability, we would have had the same development. Europe would be here between November to February. We would make maybe 20 billion dollars. The same way the Europeans and Americans are going to CancunCancun is just 20 years old. Yes. Or the Golden Beach in Australia. They have had the flood now. But for the past 50 years, they have been operating. And its not as good as this. Look at little Bathurst in Gambia, they only have an ordinary river like Ogun River there. See how many resorts they have there.And when former President Gnassingbe Eyadema of Togo was not so murderous, they had Tropicana and the Scandinavians used to come. They had hotels. It was when he now started stopping everybody within 10 metres and asking them to open their suitcases that people fled and the place turned into a jungle within 10 years.So this is the thing. Now people here as a result of politics said: No we wont give lease. The poor man wont go to the beach. And I asked which poor man Those in other places go thereWho goes there Everybody! You will go and pay your equivalent of a few Francs and you go there. Who will develop a beach and wont want to make money from it By preventing people coming thereIt doesnt make sense. But they are dogs in the manger, these small minded civil servants and others. They cant see somebody else building a 50 rooms four star hotel and creating a service and becoming rich. There is that negative... Poverty mentalityYes. Its at the bottom of it. I dont see any politics of pride or any politics of Federation against it. It is just the personal thing.Look at what they are trying to charge for the so- called leases done by the Federal Government. I was part of the government. Lagos State didnt exist before. What is the problemAnd you want to take 60 something million, a hundred million. By the time you make land so expensive you have driven up rents. When government was using those lands before, it was N400 ground rent, maybe they increased it to N20, 000. In London or anywhere ground rent is low. You are trying to encourage people to develop things. By the time you ask somebody to pay you rent on land with the amount which he could rent a house with, are you developingI dont know where they get these ideas from; and then they turn round and tell you, this is our oil.If this is your oil, rememberpeople who have oil you have taken 90 percent from them. Do you want Federal Government to come and take 90 percent from you, (laughs) So, you just have to do give what it takes; we must give appropriate price, appropriate incentives for people to invest. Two, we must be able to say that if there is any problem we shall have justice, proper adjudication. That must be there. The initial pricing must be sensible. We are so blessed by geography and resources that we could be growing by 15 percent for the next 20 yearsAnd I believe that by the time per capita income reaches 4,000-5,000 dollars people will say no to debt change. They will demand better housing.When I first got to England as a student, 60 percent of houses in England didnt have toilets and bathrooms.I f you wanted to have your bath, you would go to public ones and pay your five pence.An Englishman under 40 years will not have an idea of what I am saying now.I was in England when they started electrifying the last house and I am not that old. But in those days they were using coal and London used to have smog.But suddenly they said no smoke. Then they started cleaning the houses. By mid 1970s you started seeing magnificent summer. It transformed the place. So things can change dramatically in Nigeria.When I first went to Germany in 1954 cigarette and coffee was gold. Within 20 years things changed. Look at Vietnam bombed into smithereens. Now its better than Nigeria. I remember some Nigerians 20 years ago. They told me they were going to Vietnam to start a charter company. If they try it here they will say pull him down. Nigerians will do well outside but For example its a Nigerian that is helping the Iraqis with the railway systemOne of the key reforms I will like to see in the next one year or two is to agree that we have had enough of this Federal Character thing. For parliament, yes we can have it, go there to debate and agree.But once you agree on what you want, the instrument to implement should be the best you can find, merit and productivity driven. Eighty per cent of the people doing so many things in Dubai are foreigners.I was born in Yaba Lagos. My father was in Customs and within two months he was transferred to Calabar. I became conscious in Calabar.And in Calabar in those days there was one Mr. Fernandez. He was the best baker, the best photographer. He was a Lagosian of Aguda derivative.I think at the age of 90 something unfortunately ,my friend Ojukwu expelled him when he was preparing for Biafra. A man who had spent over seven decades of his life in the place. But no one asked whether he was a Yoruba or not then. If you wanted a good bread or photograph, they asked you to go to Mr. Fernandez. The late Sultan Abubakar, had someone from Ogwuachukwu area in the Niger Delta to drive his father because he didnt have a driver in Sokoto. So that man grew up with the late Sultan.And of course, he married there. He was the person allowed to go and wake the Sultan until he died 20 years ago. We Lost Lagos Metroline To Our Stupidity As A Nation... I was somewhere when you got stuck in traffic for hours and you bemoaned the lack of foresight on the Lagos Metroline project. You know something about the project; can you give us an insight into itThat was a terrible thing. It shows the irresponsibility and lack of memory of some of those who had taken decisions on some things since the destruction of what we had.You know in 1964, Konisberger led a United Nations team to survey Lagos and directions of growth and make recommendations. And that Konisberger report recommended that Lagos should build a mono rail from Ikeja to Ebute-Ero.It could see the way Lagos was growing and the need for mass urban transit. That was in 1964. That same report recommended a regional approach to the supply of water damming Ogun River, just like New York is supplied from Upper Hudson River.That was to supply Ogun State and Lagos. Unfortunately, when the civilians came Jakande didnt like the idea. Thats that. We had already in the vote 1964 to 1965 money to start central sewage around Tinubu Square and to be expanded. It was abandoned.At that time, we thought we should not have government offices scattered around. We got through council in 1964 what we called planned construction of government offices. We were going to practically acquire, Holist Street, Oke Suna Street, and all the streets down to Race Course. Anyway, all these were part of the concept.Now, lets go back to the Metroline project. With the coup detat of 1966, that put paid to that. By 1967 states were created. Even before the Konisberger report, there was a report from a group that came from Canada. They made recommendation on inter city transport. Lagos is like Venice. Go to Venice, there are a hundred lanes, water transportations, there should be a hundred ferries going between Ikoyi Victoria Island and where you have Lagos State University, LASU, in Ojoo. Under the colonial government we used to go to Apapa by water. We have not exploited all that.On the Metroline issue, nothing happened. We were retired in 1975 after the coup. I went into private life. Later, we resuscitated the project. There is no way you can carry everybodyworkers, passengers within a short time on road where a city is more than two million. You want to put everybody in taxis Its not possible. We were able to persuade the government. At that time, Shehu Musa Yar Adua was the Minister for Transport to make it that one, in principle; every city above two million should have mass transit. Two, arising from that we would identify 14 cities that were about two million or already two million; with of course Lagos. For Lagos, we agreed that they should go and design for construction a mass transit line immediately. We selected RTP of France. The fantastic thing they have in Paris is coordinating the buses with the subways etc linking one another. Its fantastic. They had also worked in San Francisco, USA. They were appointed and we all agreed. Their credentials were very good.We went from Lagos to Ibadan, Ilorin, Kaduna, Jos, Kano, Markurdi, Enugu, Aba, Port Harcourt, Benin City, Warri and Abuja, which was projected to be the capital. RTP decided on designing Lagos. Then the military government said they were going to hand-over in 1979. They bought the idea. Of course, they wanted to plan a Transport Commission but that they would leave it to the civilians. But in the meantime, the French RTP had done preliminary studies and handed over. Jakande came. Some people went to him and sold the idea of light municipal mass transit or something. So, he had to fall back to the RTP decisions. And we were lucky, we secured $450 million loan at six percent fixed interest rate for 25 years. One month later, it was impossible to get such loan because of change of policy. But there we were lucky that for 25 years we would have had this at give-away. And economic studies have already shown that charging the prices people were already paying, we didnt need subsidy. The country would benefit. They looked at Abidjan and Cairo. Abidjan wasnt quite ready. So, Cairo. They started designing Lagos and Cairo the same time. Then people did coup against Shagari and decided to cancel the project of which we had already paid 15 percent per $60 million. Work had started in Yaba. They then took us to court and they found us guilty naturally and fined us $60 million. I am sure thats part of what we settled finally in the Paris Club debt.It must have become $3 billion dollars and not one kilometer was constructed. You can see the stupidity and how we waste money. But these same charactersthen, we had not gone back to civilian rule were very happy in 1990 to be honoured guests in Cairo at the commissioning of Cairo Mass Transit which has made all the difference to Cairo! We are not ashamed. They all went there. Maybe they did not know what they were doing. How can a country lose time, lose treasure And they have brilliant Nigerians manning places abroad. Then as a country we make ourselves objects of ridicule.They showed me what they are planning now. I am not opposed to it. Half bread is better than none. Let it go ahead. By now we should have been extending the previous plan towards Okokomaiko and Victoria Garden City.That would have removed two- thirds of the cars from the road on a week day.
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