The clamour for a national discourse to determine the basis for our national unity, has again, come to the fore following the recent insurgence in the northern part of the country, which is posing serious security challenges culminating in protests by parents against the posting of their wards to certain areas of the country for the mandatory one-year National Youth Service Corps (NYSC) programme. In this interview with BERTRAM NWANNEKANMA, a Lagos-based legal practitioner and partner with Aelex Legal Practitioners and Arbitrators, Soji Awogbade, calls for a constitutional reform to address the problem. He explained that Aelex's choice of 'This house must not fall: Constitutional reform and the people's will', for its eighth yearly lecture, was a demonstration of its firm belief in the importance of constitutional reform to the nation. The renowned arbitrator also bared his mind on the fight against corruption in the country and the bribery allegations trailing the oil subsidy probe amongst other issues. ExcerptsTHE security challenges in the country at the moment have heightened the clamour for a Sovereign National Conference (SNC), what is your view on this'As a lawyer, I run away from titles, I look at the substance. That is my training because I must look beneath the title to see what is inside the book. Now, when you talk about a Sovereign National Conference, you are already introducing elements, which might make it difficult to sustain a national discourse. A national conference, to my mind, is about bringing all the ethnic nationalities of Nigeria to talk about the Constitution. When you put the word sovereign, you have to obtain the permission of those who are in position of authority, at that particular time, because they will argue very strongly that the constitution that we have now, was subscribed to by all the citizens of Nigeria.So, whether you want to remove the word sovereign or you want to remove the word national, I don't know. What I know is that just like Aelex, people are interested in talking about constitutional structure to see whether, in fact, there are not issues we really need to change, or we need to tinker with or we need to adjust, or we need to even understand better. People have selected certain paradigms by which we shall be ruled. It is very important that we all understand it. I need to understand whether, in fact, if you are not ready for development, I can move forward with development. I also need to know whether if you are not ready for a particular kind of activity, I have the right to go for it. This is the type of thing that a national conference or, in fact, a national discourse will help to establish and make reforms. Therefore, we will live better because we now understand where each of us fits in the framework.The National Assembly has been adopting a piecemeal approach in amending the constitution. Do you think this will lead us to the expected end'Not every country in the world sits down at one time to review its constitution. That exercise is usually left for countries that are emerging either from a crisis or countries that have persistent problem within their constituents. Lawmakers all over the world are elected to make sure that country has a constitution and if they find any reason to adjust it to suit the wishes of the electorate, they do so. And if you look at constitutional amendment properly, they have very high threshold, which will ensure that these things will not be carelessly done or whimsically done to suit the people who are for the time being gathered as the national lawmakers. So if you call what the National Assembly is doing piecemeal, I think that is what the National Assembly does everywhere. It does piecemeal adjustment of the constitution. It looks at a particular aspect and says oh! 'this does not look so well. For instance, we have a power problem. If the constitution has already stated that states cannot do their own power projects, if that is a constitutional provision, don't you think it should be adjusted to allow states to pursue self-sufficiency in power, if that will not affect the unity of the nation. These are the kind of things you call piecemeal, which the Legislature should be able to do on our behalf, because nothing is permanent except change.The situation in which the constitution was put together might have changed and indeed, has changed and therefore, there is the need to adjust the grundnorm, which is the constitution to suit those purposes. Therefore, I will not say it is piecemeal. But if what you are saying is that they are not considering the fundamental elements that underline that change before they put forward that change, then, I can come along with you and say Ah! In that situation, a piecemeal approach will not lead us to the expected end, because every bit of the constitution is hung to the other in a uniform structure, which we also subscribe because inside the unity of the people, there should be an agreement. That is what the constitution is. So if you and I subscribe to a union, we must know the rules. Just like you and I join a town's meeting, you will be told when you are going to be fined one bottle of beer or one keg of palm wine. They don't just wake up one morning and say, you go and pay, we really know the rules and we subscribe to them. If you are working in Aelex for example and they said that if you come late by one hour, you pay N10,000.00 out of your salary per month, you know, they cannot spring a surprise on you, so it cannot be piecemeal in that regard. It has to be holistic, we have to have an understanding of how the nation will run and that should be the business of people who understand governance, who understand the rights of the people and who understand the basis of the union. That is what the constitution entails.From what you have just said, are you of the view that Nigeria's foundation is faulty'I am more and more persuaded that we may throw away the baby with the bath water and the baby is very precious. One of the unique things that you encounter when you travel to other countries is this sense of awesomeness that other people have for Nigerians because of the size of the country. I encounter this quite a lot. What does that tell me' It tells me that the current state of Nigeria is enviable and if it is not fundamentally flawed, we should do everything to retain it. But let me tell you where the problem lies. The Igbo, Yoruba, Tiv, Hausa and Kanuri people of Nigeria likely want to retain it but I don't know of the Yoruba, Igbo Tiv, Hausa and Kanuri politicians. Where I come from, we have always lived together, each person with his own speciality, special interest and characteristics. That is what makes a strong nation, if things are well-run. But I am not so sure that this union, as we are running it, is the best way. There are so many inequalities and aberrations in the way in which things are structured that so many people are losing faith in the continuity of the nation. But I do not think that is a foundational issue.In the 60s, we were here together and we lived in peace. Even when we had a Civil War, we were able to come back together again and we continued to live in peace. I don't agree that it is the foundation that is the problem. A nation is not like a building in that sense, even if there is a foundational problem, it is something that could be corrected constitutionally. What does it mean' It means that I now understand what you are contributing to this nation and for what you are contributing, I think you should get Z. I now see what you are contributing and for what you are contributing I think you should get Y. Those are the considerations and adjustments, that we have to make which will make a better country. But we are not going to look back to those conditions, the house is already up, we are praying for it not to fall, that is why Aelex came up with this. Is it a problem of the constitution' Let us talk about it and fix it.Was that the reason for the choice of the topic: 'This house must not fall: Constitutional reform and the people's will''You should know that Aelex is in Nigeria and a Nigerian firm. We should be concerned with the place, which we live and do business in. Anybody who has been observing the recent trend in the country will know that we have been going from one kind of crisis to another. So, as a responsible firm, we feel that every Nigerian has a role to play in proferring solution, and that is why we chose to play a role in the constitutional area. We want to see, if we can continue with the debate on whether constitutional reform combined with other types of reforms can produce a better country, a more united country and a more productive country, a place where you and I will feel free and be comfortable.Are there other reasons that influenced the choice of the topic'What we do every year is to choose a topic, which in our view, can contribute to development of the country. We feel that if the foundation of our union in Nigeria is not clearly adjusted, it may lead to other problems that could impede development. That is why each year we search for one subject, which we think, will lead to a better Nigeria. That is why we have chosen this year's topic around the constitutional issue.Do you think these lecture series have achieved the desired objectives over the years'Without being immodest, they have been a success. We think we have achieved even more than we think. Every year, we take a subject, which results to change. That has helped to establish a framework in various sectors of the economy. Constitutional reform is another area we think goes to the root of the problem in this country. Perhaps, it is an ambitious project this year because constitutional reform is not measurable like power. It is not measurable like other indices, which we judge development. But if you look at the kind of people we are bringing together to make contributions, we know their experiences and rich exposures will be beneficial towards grafting a better, more acceptable and more workable constitution for Nigeria.Beyond the lectures, are there other moves to carry the message a bit further'You know that every unit of the society has a duty and it is that duty, which you owe your society to do its part well. What Aelex represents in the practice of law today is a realisation of the fact that although the advanced world has moved on, we can also move, before the formation of Aelex, out of four different law firms, we operated in small pockets, today, we have the largest firm in west Africa employing people, giving hopes to so many professionals that there is a way to the top, that is what Nigeria should be doing. Nigeria should give hope even to the youngest child that there is on the way to the top. We can show good practices either as professionals or as individuals or as partners and owners of the business. We do our best to encourage people.Who are you expecting at the lecture'Being a constitutional debate, we expect a lot of people, because we have always been surprised by the kind of people who attend our lectures to discuss these issues.The recent subsidy probe report has been bedevilled with bribery allegations and counter-allegations, what do you think it portends for Nigeria's anti-corruption crusade'I think we are all afraid of disclosures and openness. I think the nation should be clapping. We have gone to the level where there are no sacred cows, who can just get away with anything they do. What I am saying is that we should be celebrating that freedom that allows people to actually talk about issues in the open and not to cover it and go and settle it in such dark room, when especially all of us are concerned. We should celebrate that it has happened. You must not misunderstand me, that phenomenon called corruption is a global thing. It is how each nation tackles it that makes a difference. If we become a nation where we cannot do anything corrupt because you are a big man or you are in position of control, then we are emerging out a strong nation. Don't let me fool you, corruption will always be in the world.Are you satisfied with the way government is waging the war against corruption'Nobody can be satisfied. If you know one quarter of what I know, you cannot be satisfied because there is so much rot. It is like having a pack of one thousand thieves and you catch one, then you have not solved the robbery problem. I am not calling anybody a thief, but we are not getting there. We are not running a very upright nation, we know that, if you know how far corruption has grown, not just at the top, but at the lower rungs, you weep for this country. Before your kids enter secondary school or university, they are already very corrupt. I am not looking at some senators or class, but I am looking at the quality that has issues to correct at every level from cradle to grave. I am not happy that we are not getting there but I am also happy that we are moving.How do you also react to the delay in adjudication of cases in our courts, does it not also amount to corruption'Again, every institution in a democracy is susceptible to reforms. Don't forget that the system of adjudication that we are using now is the one that we inherited from another culture. We know how we settle African disputes. You bring one man, hold one cutlass and he swears, he will confess. But we have embraced democracy. And now democracy has allowed the man to say, I will not even say anything and opt for the sixth amendment or I have the right to remain silent.There is no nation where all thieves are caught. There is no nation where every thing is right. But it is the law that all these societies that we are envying put in place to punish crime that makes the difference and the level of misdeeds are lower because of the consequences. But in a nation that allows crime, encourages crime, cordons crimes or allows the use power to suppress the sector of punishment of crime, we have a long way to go.What is the way out'Reforms. And when you want to start reforms, you must make sure that the standards are there and whoever that is below the standard, gets punishment for it. It does not require a revolution but a reform. If the Lagos State Traffic Management Authority (LASTMA) starts to punish traffic crimes, do you think anybody will like to drive badly' But if LASTMA arrests you and begins to take money and let you go, then there is no way anybody will obey the rules.Nigeria seems to be a country of dramas by formulating many new terminologies. We have, again, come out with the concept of agent provocateurs. What does this really mean'It is a concept that you can use to catch any situation in law. The law has all aspects. Don't forget that it is not up to two years ago that we were talking about plea-bargaining, now we are talking about agent provocateurs. Just give it to my profession. We are very creative, when it comes to defending other people's right. It is only when you are not on the other side that you would complain. If your brother or mother is on the other side, you will look for a lawyer to defend them. It is a fundamental thing that there must be a prosecution and there must be a defence. In all countries including Nigeria, even if you cannot afford a defence counsel, they will give you one. Because law is not arithmetic, the fact that you came into the office two hours ago, and something went missing two hours ago, does not mean that you are the thief. But if the police just come and wrap you up and put you into trial, until you are defended, your innocence cannot be proved. We cannot get sensational judgment based on the public out cry that this man is bad or not unless he is tried and defended.There are complaints that we always talk so much in Nigeria without action. Do you agree with this'So we should not talk. So nobody should do anything. Is that what we want' If you know the amount of resources that Aelex put into this lecture, we are not talking of money only, we are talking of organisational resource, you will marvel. Look at the line up of the Speakers you know, that we have to gather them. They are not people you just pick anyhow. You have to select them through a rigorous process. In fact the financial aspect is very substantial, we can keep that money in our coffers but we don't think that is the way a nation grows, an institution like ours has to do something. That is why we are acting in this area of constitutional reform. Some people might be saying that it is war we cannot win but no let us allow people come to discuss we may learn one or two things from their experiences. At one of our past lectures, we asked 'how does Ghana keep the light on' That time, Ghana was not producing oil and yet, it did not have anything close to our power failure. The Ghanaian minister came and told us one significant fact, which is what we are copying today. You must not play politics with power. It is too fundamental. Don't play politics with power. Make a programme stand by itself. If anybody is not listening, we have made our own efforts.
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