Mr. Frank Kokori, former Secretary General of National Union of Petroleum and Gas (NUPENG) and social justice advocate, speaking with KAMAL TAYO OROPO, said with unpatriotic leaders the country may find it tough making headways.' Corruption, Bad Leadership Our BaneFIFTY-two years after independence, would you say the country has made some good start'For me, 52 years in this modern age, is a long period. People will tell you that America had been there for over 200 years, and that Russia has done 1,000 years. No, 52 years is enough for a developing country like Nigeria in the 21st century to have moved really well. In other words, we are supposed to be on the same wavelength with countries like Malaysia, Indonesia, India and other countries in that axis, even South Korea and Singapore. But you could see the level we are. In other words, we, Nigerian leaders, have failed the people.It is very unfortunate! Some of us, who were at secondary school age when we had independence, had so much hope with the type of leaders we had at that time '' Azikiwe, Awolowo, Ahmadu Bello. We were thinking that by now, we should be on the same wavelength with civilised countries. But, here we are; we are still crawling.Where did we get it wrong'I will say that we are just unfortunate. People will say it is the military. Yes, there is the military, but after some time, Nigerian leaders, the founding fathers of this country, the great men I have just called during the government of that time, which was the Northern Peoples Congress (NPC) and the NCNC government, derailed. The government became corrupt. So, the whole fault is still on our leaders; whether it is the First or Second Republics, it is the same thing.In Nigeria, it is the opposition that is always shouting, but when even the opposition comes to power, they continue with the same problem. That is the amazing thing. Is it because some of us have not come to power'By the way, those of us on the sidelines, we look at things and say this man should have done things this way, but when we are there we can't do it. When former President Olusegun Obasanjo took over, I was thinking we had got a messiah. I said, 'yes, this man, we were in prison together, and when he came out, the whole of Nigeria, voted for him.' But suddenly, Obasanjo changed; he could not fight corruption and give us the national conference.There were a lot of things he wasn't doing again. He became so partisan and he began to play the survivalist part of politics. Then, eight years went, and Jonathan was coming, and we thought the man would do wonders because of the problems he passed through before he finally got the power. But look at what Jonathan is doing now; he has just said goodbye to fighting corruption.There is no deterrent and one bane of the society today is corruption. If this corruption is fought head long, the judiciary we are saying is corrupt would stop being corrupt, the police will stop being corrupt, and once we get those two institutions right in any society, (it will work). If you commit any offence, the police will get you, the police will not take sides; and if you get to court, it will play its role by punishing you.If this is in place, nobody will take bribes any longer, if you have to account for your wealth. But when these things are not there, there is no way you can get a good society. I think that is one of the problems we have. So, in other words, every government in the first, second, third and fourth republic that we are in now, have let the people down.Why is it like that' We don't know because there is no deterrent. Immediately Ghana decided to punish people, things changed. Look at Ghana, it was wobbling so much that at a stage, Nigeria became their Mecca, and we looked at them as people not doing well. But when Rawlings came in, he took in the leaders, lined them up and executed them. From then till today, look at Ghana; they don't rig elections there any longer.And that is another bane we have in our country. When I say corruption, it is the same thing, a situation where an INEC commissioner will blatantly take bribes and announce different results. How can we, at this stage of Nigeria, still be having corrupt INEC officials'But do we need a Rawlings' solution for the politicians to learn their lessons'Nigeria may not need it because nobody can do it; it is only the military that does it, and we don't trust our military any longer. A civilian government can't line people up and shoot them, but there must be deterrence. America is there, that is the home of democracy, but they gave business moguls 25 to 35 years imprisonment, just like China.Look at what we are having in Nigeria: governors, politicians, business men or bank chiefs; after committing the whole havoc on society, they are detained by the EFCC for one week and when they come out, they become heroes, and the case is adjourned sine die and you don't hear about it anymore.Look at all of them, the bank chiefs, the politicians and the governors, who had been tried since; which of them had been punished' Ibori ran to the UK; it is the UK government that caught him. We run a system of government where there is no deterrence. That is why I think that Jonathan, as a young president, comparatively, should have done more, especially when he came from the academia.And you know the kind of big talk they talk at the universities. At the universities, there is the students' union and people talk in a nationalistic manner; when you come out, you should behave the same way, just like those of us in the trade unions. As long as Jonathan does not fight corruption, he has done nothing.WHAT is your position in recurrent calls for a national conference and devolution of powers in favour of the states, as well as state police'I'm in total support of national conference and I also support devolution of power to the state; as long as it does not lead to state police. For now, state police is not in our interest because the state governor would abuse it and use it arbitrarily. Already, and as it were, constitutionally, state governors are too powerful. The state assemblies that are there to check them, are not playing their check and balances roles.Why should you be supporting a call for a national conference when there is a National Assembly in place supposedly representing their various peoples'The National Assembly cannot play that role because members are partisan, representing political parties. They don't speak the truth all the time; they only do so when it directly favours them and favours their parties. They view most issues on partisan lines.Under a national conference, we elect people directly, not under political party platforms, and they will go there directly representing the people. There are more chances they will speak the truth, as majority of their people see it. They speak the mandate of their people and if they fail to do so, the people will shout at them and they can be withdrawn.It is very important we have it. The National Assembly will be there, while the national conference is going on. It's being done all over the world and we have done it before. The only thing is that after doing it, we don't implement decisions reached.Still on the call for state police, are you really saying that Nigeria, at 52, is not yet matured for such an arrangement'Yes we are not. I was a young man when the First Republic was going on and I saw a little bit of that republic. During that period, it was so bad under the Native Authority Police (or the Alkali Police, as it was in the North). They were bad and oppressive. For example, most of the Aminu Kano supporters in the far north were arbitrarily arrested and locked up. They were often harassed unnecessarily. The same thing for Joseph Tarka's people in the Middle Belt.In the West, we had the local police authority also oppressing members of the opposition in the region. We saw all those things. And mind you, these leaders were a lot better in character and in deed. But the present governors are tin gods. Nobody dares to talk to them. Look at most of the states, there is hardly any opposition. It's only at the centre we can even talk of some opposition. In the states, you dare not talk against the government in power.And because of the greed of our people, everyone wants to make money. If you are not in the governor's good book you feel you cannot make money. Every opposition is in the government's pocket; they always cooperate with the ruling party. That is why I said they will use it arbitrarily and oppress the people. State police will be the final end of what is left of the opposition. We should not go near state police at all.Just like this N5,000 single denomination thing. As far as I am concerned, it is not an issue. When people talk about it, I don't understand the point they are trying to make, just as I don't understand the type of economy the governor of the Central Bank of Nigeria, Sanusi Lamido Sanusi, was talking about when you can now pocket N5 million. And you are talking of cashless economy; what a contradiction. These are the types of voodoo economics they talk about in this country, as if other people did not go to school at all.Let us not go near state police all; at least not in my generation, not even in your (reporter) own generation, maybe, your grand children, when we are a bit more civilised. Presently, your opinion counts for little. Your newspaper may write all the editorials it so wishes, it will not change a thing. The governors will do what they want to do.HOW do you view the growing feelings that the presidential system of government is expensive and unsustainable for the country. Would you have preferred a parliamentary system, as operated in the First Republic'Yes, the parliamentary system was very inexpensive. The only problem is that Nigeria has developed and advanced. We are now a large country, with huge diversity like the United States of America.Earlier, I was almost 100 percent in support of this call, where apart from being inexpensive, checks and balances in the system are more practicable and easy. A simple majority is all you need to defeat or win a motion. The Prime Minister must always be very, very careful, unlike the presidential system where the President can run roughshod on anybody.Actually, it does appear we are not mature yet for this presidential system. The system is for real advanced environments, where leaders are leaders and where people talk of public opinions. For us really, it is too expensive and we are not really matured for it. We just spend money any how, especially in the National Assembly.But I will say that it may not be possible for the country to go back to parliamentary system again. The political elite will never agree to it; those who are in the system will never allow it. They will buy everybody to make that move fail. We have to mange this presidential system.However, Nigerians should try as much as possible to be patriotic. The executive, the legislature and even the judiciary, should be more patriotic. Once every arm does its job selflessly without corruption, this country will be on the path of greatness. Corruption is the bane of our development. I'm not sure we would be better off even if we go back to parliamentary system. This is because if you go back to the system and there is a party in the majority, they could do anything they want with their majority.The type of system we have now is so different from that of the First Republic when we had patriots and nationalists in the assembly. The present members are neither patriotic nor nationalistic; they are interested in sharing money.It is a terrible thing. I don't even know what else to do again. But we should endeavour to continue with this presidential system with moderation. This is really an appeal to our people. Once corruption is wiped out, through severe punishment on offenders, we would begin to move up.
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