Professor Kimse Okoko is president of the Conference of Ethnic Nationalities of Niger Delta (CENND) and a chieftain of the Ijaw National Congress (INC) spoke to KELVIN EBIRI in Port Harcourt on fighting corruption in the country.WHAT is your assessment of ICPC' Obviously, it has not been able to curb corruption in Nigeria just like its sister agency, the EFCC. But I will say without them, corruption may have been far worse.I think the country needs to strengthen these organisations and ensure that they are totally independent and not under the control of any arm of government.Are you implying that the ICPC is not independent'If you see what happened during the Obasanjo era where that evil administration went on selective witch-hunting of its opponents, using these organisations to do the dirty job for him; clearly, that's an indication that the organisations were not left to do their work independently.This implies lack of sincerity on government's part to fight corruption. I am hoping that this administration would be quite different from what we have experienced in the past eight or 10 years.Why is corruption so ubiquitous in every facet of Nigeria'People have argued that it is part of the so many legacies of colonialism. Even if that is true, we cannot continue to blame all our ills on colonialism. We have been independent for over 50 years and we should be able to do something to tackle the issue of corruption.But this has not been possible because of the value system in the country and this has not been helpful in the fight against corruption. Let's take corruption by civil servants, politicians and so on. Communities aid and abet corruption because they see anyone in the civil service or a politician as somebody on top of money.Of course, all sorts of unnecessary demands also follow that on the individuals and those who cannot meet these demands would want to go the extra mile to satisfy these demands. Then, the massive poverty seems to be another driving force.Worse still is that the leadership of this country has not been able to demonstrate its determination to wipe out corruption. The leadership, both public and private, is part of the problem. You find out that in that kind of situation, it would be difficult for them to turn round and fight corruption.Even the institutions that we have are enmeshed in corruption. For instance, the judiciary, as you know, is recklessly corruption. The churches are not left out. Corruption is endemic. You can hardly find any group in Nigeria that is free of corruption and so can lead the fight against it. It has seeped into the university, even the top echelon.What aggravated this problem and when'Corruption was aggravated during the military era when you have instant millionaires and billionaires. The ruler ship in the military at a time started buying posh buildings in the capitals of the world and spending shamelessly stolen resources of the country and living in luxury in the midst of absoluteexcruciating poverty.That was one factor that inspired other Nigerians. Their reckoning was if the military could engage in the reckless looting of this country, why not them. When the military left, others in the civil service and the politicians began to copy them and we now find ourselves in this sort of situation.Leadership has a lot of role to play if we have to combat corruption. So long as the leadership continues to fool the nation, deceive the people and pretend that they are fighting corruption, so long will we be in this quagmire.What is the implication ofICPC's inability to effectively combat corruption'The implication is obvious: There is no real development. Almost all sectors are left unattended to. Education is in a mess, health, too. Roads are completely impassable in most cases. The Power Holding Company of Nigeria has failed. How can we justify that a country with all its oil and gas resources is still in this continuous darkness'When most individuals are caught in the act of corruption, these agencies are unable to pursue the matter and so, it gives people the courage to be corrupt with greater impunity.The judiciary is embroiled in corruption. You find that even those that the ICPC may have taken to court, the judiciary allows their cases to drag on for many years.Some individuals could be so powerful that they will not appear before the court. I recall a case where the court ruled that a former governor should not be tried or arrested. In this country, that kind of heartrending judgment is given and nobody is saying anything about it. How can they fight corruption when we have these kinds of bizarre things happening'This judicial decision demonstrates to the rest of the country that corruption pays. This kind of scandalous judgment by the judiciary clearly is not helping the agencies in the fight against corruption. Those cases that should have been used as deterrent have, in many instances, been left unattended to.A corrupt judiciary is one of the most dangerous indices of a destructive society. We hope that somewhere along the line, some of the judges will stand up to this challenge and do something about it. They have to internally clean the judiciary if we want to see this country grow.Corruption has a major part to play in the downward turn of this country. So long as we deceive ourselves that we are fighting corruption, we will not make any meaningful progress. That is why the present administration has to tackle it head-on. It has to be one of its major wars in addition to power reform and others.If we don't bring down corruption to a manageable level within the shortest possible time, this country will continue to wallow in poverty and experience instability and all the kinds of violence taking place.CHINA has adopted capital punishment as a strategy to curb corruption. Shouldn't Nigeria do the same'We have this ethical problem of saying it is not right to take somebody's life. That has been the basis for countries to legislate against capital punishment. But you see, when you consider the impact of corruption on individuals in the country, you will appreciate China's hard stance.Corruption is part of the major reason we are poor today and our people are suffering immensely in this country. With this, you will begin to see the rationale what the Chinese are doing against corruption.If the (Nigerian) judiciary was not corrupt and they hand life sentences to individuals who are corrupt, it would still have done the job. It would have been a sufficient deterrent. If people are jailed for life, we will make progress. People found to be corrupt should be jailed for life. That is what we need in this country.While appreciating the rationale for the Chinese strategy, I think for moral and ethical reason, if we punish people with life sentences without killing them, it will serve the purpose.How do we strength the ICPC to make it efficient'Leave them to be independent. Don't monkey around the institution. During Obasanjo's period, they used the Attorney General to play a dirty role to interfere with the judicial process over corruption cases. That cannot help the fight against corruption.We must leave the anti-corruption agency to be independent. We should give it the wherewithal for it to fight corruption. If we continue to interfere with its affairs, we cannot achieve the purpose for which the institution and others were set up.We need to see them work effectively and quickly because delay is so dangerous. When Nuhu Ribadu was at the EFCC, he said 31 governors were corrupt. Today, how many of them have been sued to court and how many have been convicted' That kind of scenario cannot promote successfully any war against corruption.Do you support calls for a special court to try corrupt cases'Providingspecial court will depend on if it will act independently. If the government is going to interfere, the same scenario now will take place. All we need is to ensure that those institutions designated to fight corruption are allowed to work independently.There must be no political interference whether from the executive or legislative arm. If you keep interfering with these institutions, they cannot perform effectively. So, whatever reforms or policies you want to come up with, first of all, you must recognise that these institutions must be truly independent.Why is there politicalinterference'It is for selfish interest. Corruption is a web. It involves the parties ' members of the parties ' corrupt individuals who have been embezzling money for their party and who shares the money some key party members. Thus, when there are corruption charges, the party interferes to ensure that the guy is let off the hook.It is part of the web of corruption that is responsible for this attitude of the judiciary not being allowed to do its job. The government will always find a compliantjudge to do the dirty job; I mean one who would have compromised and could turn a blind eye in a case before his court.Politicians are largely responsible for it. The might and powerful, the wealthy Nigerians are also responsible for corruption. A wealthy Nigerian can go to court, even in a murder case and get away with it by simply bribing the judge. That is the point we are now.That somebody can order the killing of innocent Nigerians and get away with it by making a nuisance of the court system. There are many instances in this country.There are many unresolved murder cases and the police will tell you we are still investigating. There is a criminal elite that is eating fat and using its resources to further guide this country to the precipice.
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