Musiliu Obanikoro, a member of the Senate between 2003 and 2007, is Nigeria's High Commissioner in Ghana. In this no holds barred interview with General Editor, Lasisi Olagunju and Deputy Editor Sulaimon Olanrewaju, he speaks on the struggle for the soul of Lagos by indigenes and settlers, the last local government election in the state, his parting of ways with the Alliance for Democracy and why Nigeria must get its bearing right, among other front burner issues. Excerpts.As a leader of the Alliance for Democracy (AD) in those days, you were seen as the party's Mr Fix It. At what point did you decide to part ways with the party'LET me say that I have always been a grass-roots politician and I have benefited from grass-roots politicking. If that is where the conclusion came from, then it is not too far from reality. But the fact remains that at a point in time, the AD that we joined was murdered and some of us felt that things should not continue the way they were going. I am happy today that with the benefit of hindsight, it was the right thing to do.How was the AD you joined murdered'I think it was 2001 that we had a split national convention. It was a premeditated thing orchestrated from Lagos here. But unfortunately, some of the other governors also lent their names to it without knowing the hidden agenda behind the split convention. We had the Pa Adesanya's convention that returned (Ambassador) Mamman as the chairman and the one led by the governors and Chief Bola Ige of blessed memory that returned Abdukadir as the chairman. The Independent National Electoral Commission endorsed the Abdulakdir's convention. It was like taking the party away from the original owners and handing it over to tenants. The leaders that were ousted were the trustees, the soul of the party. Our 1999 victory was made possible by these leaders. There was no doubt that these were the leaders of the Yoruba people. With the sidelining of the leaders, the party was effectively murdered.You said the murder was orchestrated in Lagos, who did that'Bola Tinubu played a very prominent role at that time. Some of the people did not see through all this then. You see, when you have a leader who you trust, you want to believe that the leader will always lead you aright. But when you begin to see signs that the things are not adding up, you begin to second guess that leadership. If you are smart enough, you see through some of the things they are trying to perpetrate. It will get to a point that you have to take a position whether you want to continue to be part of that or pull out, be your own person and move on with your life.Despite the crack that you noticed in 2001, you still went ahead to contest on the platform of the party in 2003. Why'Well, my election, contrary to what the people were made to believe, was not given to me on a platter of gold; it was seriously contested for. In fact I was asked to remain a commissioner. The late Oba of Lagos intervened that I had indicated interest to run for the Senate and I should be allowed to run. Tinubu said no that he wanted to retain me as a member of his cabinet. I told him that I had had enough of being a commissioner that I wanted to move on. The Oba insisted that a level playing ground should be provided and that whoever won should be supported. To stop me from contesting, the present Oba of Lagos was wooed to take the ticket. This is one of the reasons I have a lot of respect for the Oba because he declined because he knew what he wanted out of life. He knew he wanted to be an Oba, so he said no. He was also offered commissionership in Tinubu's cabinet and he also declined.Sometime I laugh when people come around to say that I was given the senatorial ticket on a platter of gold. That is not true. I spent my life saving to win that ticket. My ticket was the only one that was contested; the others were more or less anointed by the then governor. People like the Oba of Lagos, Chief Akinyelure, Prince Iludoyin and Engr. Folabi Salami all stood up and insisted that no candidate should be foisted on the people but whoever emerged at the primary would be the party's candidate. At that time, Tinubu had not become the dictator that he is today, so they were able to prevail on him to allow the primary to hold.So much falsehood has been spread about me. There was a time Tinubu said I made a vow to him in front of Kaabah in Mecca that I would not defect to PDP. My recollection of our encounter is completely different from that. Tinubu said to me, 'Koro, why are you in a hurry to go to PDP since we are all going to end up there'' he even said that he would be made the Finance Minister.By Obasanjo'He probably expected that Atiku (Abubakar) would eventually succeed Obasanjo. So, when I heard that I promised him in front of Kabbah, I laughed.Did you meet in front of Kaabah'No, we met at his hotel. It is not in front of Kaabah but it is not too far from the place.When was that'Around 2005, 2006 before I left the party. We were in Mecca for Umrah. For him to misrepresent what transpired to mean that I was saying things I did not believe in the holy land is grossly unfair to me. This is the first time I will talk about this to anybody because I believe that it is time that the public knew the truth. Mecca is a sacred place. When something of that magnitude is said about you and you allow it to go unchallenged, some people of faith may believe that for me to go to the extent of lying in that holy place, something must be fundamentally wrong with me.Was your inability to get the governorship ticket of the AD the last straw that broke the camel's back'There were so many things that transpired. Some of us saw early enough that the AD people were playing games to benefit nobody but themselves. Number one, I saw clearly a deliberate attempt by a clique to appropriate either directly Lagos State for personal gains. The more I reflect on the past, the more I thank God for taking that decision. I make bold to say that probably if I had not left AD when I did, (Babatunde) Fashola would not have been governor because the agenda was different.What was their agenda'The time is not right to say that, at the appropriate time, I will say it. But my leaving jolted them and they had to return to the drawing board. They realised that if a Lagosian was not presented there might be a problem. What they were trying to do was to neutralise the influence indigenes of Lagos State had. If you look at it today, even with Fashola in government, they have succeeded to a large extent in achieving that. Lagos is the only state in Nigeria where you have those who have served in Lagos State being a governor in another state, being senators in another state, being House of Representatives members in another state. We are not saying the state is for us indigenes alone, but if you have said you are a Lagosian, you must remain a Lagosian. These people use our state to get resources and you now dump our state for another state and you expect us to keep quiet. We recognise the fact that over a period of time, people who migrated from other places have taken Lagos to be their home, which is okay. But once you say this is your home, it should be seen in all sense as your home. You can't be a commissioner for eight years in a state after which you now jump to another state and say you want to be governor there. Or as a commissioner in Lagos State, you are using the resources of our state to give scholarships to indigenes of another state. And you are telling us we do not have Lagosians. Is that fair' That is a question they should ask their conscience if they have any.Probably because they see Lagos as a no man's land...There is no place that is regarded as a no man's land. Even in the US, which is generally regarded as a no man's land, Americans still believe that the native Indians are the owners of that place and they give them all the privileges that indigenes of a place should enjoy. One thing that is certain in America is that everybody pays tax but when you are on Indian soil, you are exempted. If you are doing business on Indian soil, you are exempted. That is to show that despite the fact that they believe that Americans are immigrants, they still recognise the rights of indigenes. How can you say that there are no Lagosians' Why then do you accept that there is Oba of Lagos or Osolo of Isolo'Some people fought for the creation of Lagos State and those of us who are indigenes of the state know these people. When those who came to Lagos not too long ago say there are no Lagosians, we just laugh because there is a history of Lagos, there is the history of obaship in Lagos. Before obaship started in Lagos, there were the Idejos. The children of Olofin are supposed to be the Idejos. Then we have the Aworis. Anyone who says there are no Lagosians deserves pity, because it shows that they lack knowledge. That we are all Nigerians and we all have equal rights is not in doubt but to say there are no indigenes of Lagos is an insult to the memories of our forefathers and those who made Lagos what it is today.Could it be that because democracy is a number game and since Lagosians voted these people in, they have accepted them'We did not vote them in. It is like you are buying a stock and they have issued a prospectus for you to read. Your investment is based on the knowledge you have acquired from reading the prospectus offered you. If after buying the shares you now discover that the prospectus given you was all made up to make the business look good, you cannot fault yourself for trusting because it is normal to believe in people. But when you now see through the lies, you see the business for what it is.For how long can we continue to close our eyes and allow the rape of Lagos to continue' Somebody appropriating people's land for personal use without any fear of God or any respect for the society. As the president, Chief Obasanjo sold Federal Government's property, you may fault him for selling the property but nobody can fault him for not advertising the property before they were sold. But all the Lagos State property sold by Tinubu were sold under the table; none was advertised by the government. Ask him the people he sold the property to. Tinubu left office much richer than he came to office. Yet he made Lagos State to buy the property where he lives now, which he probably used our money to buy in the first place. Before he left office, he got a law enacted enabling the state government to buy his private property where he was living for him. The law also states that the state must buy four cars for him every four or five years.Does the same apply to other former governors of the state'No. The law only applies to him and probably to Fashola after leaving office. If there is any governor in Lagos State that deserves anything, it is Alhaji Jakande. Next to him is General Mobolaji Johnson. But if you look at the opportunities Tinubu created to favour himself in government, it is criminal for him to ask Lagos State to give him any remuneration after office. Go to the Corporate Affairs Commission in Abuja and look at the history of Alpha Beta, you will laugh. Up till 1999 or 2000, Alpha Beta had no track record. In fact it was registered around that time. If you calculate the amount of money that has been collected by the company from Lagos State in the last 12 years, it is in excess of N100billion.But the company has also assisted the state in raising internally generated revenue'What assistance' Nothing. Prior to their being there, Adekanola had already established a revenue generation base which they jumped on. Let me tell you that Lagos State is enjoying imposing all these levies because there is no state that is competing with Lagos. The day a state like Ogun or Rivers wakes up and becomes a competitor in the real sense of competition, Lagos State within a year or two would be on the verge of bankruptcy.Go out there and talk to businessmen and women in Lagos State and hear what they will tell you. Even residents are subjected to heavy levies. I sympathise with my brother, Fashola, because to a large extent, he is helpless and this is becoming glaring to discerning minds everyday.What is the way forward'Lagosians, on their own, must make a loud and bold statement that a former governor is a former governor. We have had enough of this madness. The Yoruba saying is clear on this matter; at any point in time, there is only one king. The grace of God and the spirit of our forefathers will see us through this battle. It is a battle for the soul of Lagos.This has gone beyond the level some of us even thought. A few days ago, we had Eyo festival and the comments that people were making are enough for me to know that Lagosians are ready for change. Lagosians are tired of people who are disguising as progressives and democrats who are nothing but dictators.You were so determined to be governor in 2007 but you did not contest in 2011. Were you afraid of Fashola or Tinubu'I am only afraid of God. I can never be afraid of any human being. I saw that the timing was not right for me. I was just coming out of a hotly contested election and I needed time to really get myself together financially and mentally. I did not run for the 2007 election because I wanted people to know that I could run. Everybody knows that I gave the election my all. So, I was not ready mentally to do the same thing in 2011, so I stayed away.But did you support your party's candidate'I did but it was unfortunate that our candidate ran, not against Fashola, but a perception that Fashola performed. It was tough to run against such perception despite the fact that the reality might not have supported such perception. I am not taking anything away from Fashola, he tried, but the performance was not at the level of the perception. Unfortunately, we made the mistake of going to the election just a few months to the election. The battle should have started from the first day of Fashola's assumption of office. But we left the battle until this perception of a performing governor gained so much ground that it became very difficult to speak to the contrary and be heard. But we all can see what is happening now. They have just hiked fees of students of LASU without any discussion with parents. They are putting toll gate on Lekki expressway, does it make sense'One would think the toll gate was meant to generate revenue'Which revenue' Why didn't they put it there before the election' Which revenue are they generating' The revenue that is going to Hitech. Who is the owner of Hitech' Prior to Tinubu's administration in Lagos State, Hitech did not have any track record in Lagos State or anywhere else in Nigeria. Why would such a company be given that huge job to do and at the cost it was given' If you look at the Ozumba Mbadiwe Road they did, it cost about N4billion. Nobody asked any question. Look at the new bridge they just opened, I won't even call it a bridge, I will call it a ramp, they said they spent about N2.5billion and people are not asking questions. That is why we are speaking today. These questions have to be asked and let the Lagos State government provide the answers.You do not run a government in the closet, but that is what they are doing in Alausa today. Let people have access to information about the state. We are talking about security vote, how much is going to the governor's security vote' Let us know. Let Fashola put it on the internet. People need to know how much the governor is taking as security vote and how it is being used. We need to know how much the Lagos State government is spending on diesel. If you Google these, you can't get any information. Crime is on the high side in Lagos now; banks are being robbed during the day, people are being dispossessed in broad day light. Government must do something about all this.You said Fashola has not performed to the level of the perception he has. How come the public does not see that'Well, the hype. Everything they do is celebrated heavily. But to let you know that the performance does not support the hype, go and check the roads, they are in the worst state ever. These are roads that they had done in the past but because of the poor quality of the work done on the roads, they have gone bad now.Instead of putting the needed infrastructure in place, they keep on taking over the people's land and enriching themselves corruptly. Where Tinubu's Television Continental (TVC) is located today is the height of corruption. That used to be the seat of the Lagos State Polytechnic. Tinubu acquired the place and kicked the polytechnic out. Even if the main campus is in Ikorodu, what is wrong with maintaining a campus of the institution in Isolo' Why send them to Ikorodu and now appropriate the land to yourself and friends' Is that governance'But nobody is complaining...I am complaining.A few weeks ago, the EFCC took a former governor to court for appropriating state land, why can't the same be done in Lagos if what you are saying is true'It is because the person concerned is not in the same party as the current government in that state. That is why they wanted to kill themselves in Lagos over local government election; they lost and did not want to announce the results. They know what they have done. Some of them are criminals. What they have done can only happen in Nigeria. Look at what they did, they moved a polytechnic out of its location and private residences of friends, business associates, political associates, your personal business outfits took over the place. Is that how to govern'But Tinubu is no longer the governor of Lagos State...Who does not know that Tinubu is still the governor Lagos State' That is why the governor of Lagos State will still down and people will be referring to Tinubu as governor emeritus, that is why local government chairmen would be sworn in and after swearing allegiance to Lagos State, they would face Tinubu and say 'On your mandate we shall stand.' How can they stand on Tinubu's mandate' Who is Tinubu in Lagos' He is an indigene of Osun State. Tinubu is trivialising governance and showing gross disrespect to the office of the governor. Tinubu has no mandate in Lagos; his mandate ended in 2007 for goodness sake and we have another man, who is a Lagosian, at the helm of affairs he needs to show him some respect.But the man is not complaining...Well, I am complaining. We know the circumstances that brought him into office but despite that, he is the governor. Tinubu has to respect the office.How do you people hope to wriggle out of this supposed Tinubu stranglehold given the outcome of the last local government election'Let me tell you, if you put fire on your roof you should not go to sleep. With the manipulation of the local government election, he has just set his own house on fire and he should not sleep. This is a painful development. As a diplomat, what happens in your home country adds to or devalues your work. The whole world saw what happened here and for the ACN crowd to be saying that I held people hostage is infuriating. How could I have anybody hostage' I was alone in my car. I drove myself, no police orderly, nobody.You were not afraid of being attacked when you went out alone'Let them attack me.That means you are a hard man...I am not hard but I am courageous. Let me tell you this, Politics apart, I relate very well with most of the ACN guys. Team Lagos people were there; they were the ones that brought guns to the council. But we thank God they were not able to do the job they had been sent there to do. They were sent there to kill us; myself and my son but they were not able to. When we got to the council, the permanent secretary, Lagos State Ministry of Land, Muri Okunola, was there. His brother, who is a personal assistant to Fashola, was there but we did not fight. We greeted one another because we are all from the same place. This thing that these people are making a big deal out of is not a big deal. We exchanged greetings and I even told him, 'Akeem, I need a drink, arrange one for me.' If we were not brothers would I say that to him' Our parents are from the same place and we have no other place. We are all Lagosians. If I want to run for office tomorrow, can I go to another place to seek office' Neither will you see a Muri-Okunola or a Fashola run to another state. That is why we are saying that we have a common destiny when it comes to the affairs of our state and we cannot make enemies of one another.They have appointed commissioners but I don't know how many the governor can say are his own candidates. Ordinarily, it is not my business but it becomes my business because it concerns my state. When it comes to party affairs, it is none of my business but it becomes my business because they are running my state. I have no other state, I am a stakeholder here. On my shares alone, if I tell you how much I pay you will feel sorry for me despite the fact that my money is not being used the way I want it. What is more painful is that those who are running the affairs of this state unofficially do not have the interest of this state at heart.These people said I held officials of LASIEC hostage, now I am a Muslim, some of the officials of LASIEC happened to be Muslims and we woke up in the morning to pray. I was the one leading the prayer. If you were being held hostage and the person holding you hostage is leading prayer, what is the next thing for you to do' We prayed together, the men did not run away. We were eating from the same plate and they said I held them hostage. In solidarity with them, I didn't change my clothes; I didn't take my bath for two days. I slept at the council with the LASIEC officials for the state officials to come and collate the results. The results were there on the table but they never came to collate. I was calling the LASIEC chairman on the telephone and he kept promising that the state officials of LASIEC would join us at the council. I even gave his number to officials of LASIEC. The results that were supposed to have been collated and announced at the ward level were all left un-collated. They are now accusing me of holding LASIEC officials hostage. Can you imagine! These people don't have any fear of God at all. Before now, I had a lot of respect for some of these people but since that day I lost every modicum of respect for them.If you met Senator Bola Tinubu, what would you say to him'I would not say anything to him.Wouldn't you greet him'I would greet him. I am a Yoruba man, well trained. I would greet him, 'Good afternoon, sir'. He is older than me. I was brought up to respect elders. If I meet him I will greet him, the onus to respond is on him. You can't blame me for being disrespectful though I have my doubts when it comes to his credibility in terms of doing what is just, fair and right.What would happen if he came to beg you to come back to the party'I can never be in the same political party with Bola Tinubu.If he joined the PDP would you leave the party'I wouldn't. He has come to join us, he will be in his place and I mine. Within the Democratic Party we have the conservative wing, the moderate wing and the far right wing. He will be in one of the caucuses and I will be in mine. But for me to leave the PDP to join the ACN with Tinubu as a leader, it will never happen.Your party is perceived as an unserious party when compared with the ACN...In Lagos'Almost everywhere...No, not nationally. There is only one party in Nigeria nationally and that is the PDP. Is ACN a serious party'But it takes an unserious party to continue to lose ground to the opposition and to keep quiet.How did we lose ground' They stole our mandate through the courts and we all know how it was stolen. They were using taxpayers' money to buy judgment. Having done that now, I want to see how they are going to have a repeat of that. Unfortunately, we didn't see through that because we are firm believers in the judiciary. We strongly believe that the judiciary should not be compromised at any time because it is the last hope of the common man. To compromise the judiciary is to invite anarchy. To show how mindless and selfish they are they did not think of all this, they were all out to win office for the sake of office and for purchases. They have done the purchases and we shall see how far that will carry them.How do you rate the ACN governors'They have been in Lagos State for 12 years, if you calculate the amount of money they have taken in as revenue and you place it side by side with the level of performance that we have in Lagos, it will be 20 for and 80 against. If in Lagos with all the resources they have not been able to do anything, they won't do anything in those other places.When will Lagos PDP put its house in order'We are on the verge of doing that because we must present ourselves to the people as a viable alternative. But do not forget that politics is about the management of conflicts. You cannot have a graveyard silence. If you have that, you should question it. People will disagree, your ability to rise above those things and come together to defend or support larger issues is what is important. That is what we are striving for and I believe we will achieve it.We have had so many positive stories about Ghana, especially as regards stable electricity supply. Are you not worried that your country is still struggling with dependable electricity supply'I am concerned but I also have confidence in the leadership of the president to turn the corner and there is no doubt that he will turn the corner and take us out of this instability that we have in the power sector and other areas that are begging for attention.It is unfortunate that we always revolve things around individuals rather than institutions. Until we begin to strengthen our institutions, the instability will remain. In most cases, succeeding government always reverse what the preceding government did. That is a major problem for us. Look at the power sector for instance, by the time the Obasanjo administration was leaving, it had gotten the power sector reform up to a level, if we had continued with that, we would not be where we are today. But for almost three years, it was stopped. Look at the refineries too; they were sold to Dangote and Otedola. These things were advertised, it was not as if they were sold under the table. If the sale was advertised and others did not turn up for it, so be it. I am sure that by today the refineries would have been working well had we allowed those who bought them to run them. The amount of money we thought we were saving by taking back the refineries we have lost if you consider the amount of money the government had injected to bring those refineries back to life. My understanding of management is that a bad decision is better than a no decision. Where are we now' Everything that had been sold we have recovered. Even the Ajaokuta Steel, for almost eight to 10 years there was no activity there. It was sold to some people who tried to bring it back to life, and then it was reversed because some people complained. It is about time we had some positive stories to tell the outside world. Maybe we don't appreciate our responsibility to the black race. The black race is looking forward to Nigeria for liberation and it would be sad if a smaller country would rise to be the saviour of the black race. It is said that out of every five black men, one is a Nigerian. That shows the magnitude of responsibility that we have as Nigerians. If we cannot lead ourselves, we cannot lead others.What is your take on state police'When you look at the likes of Tinubu and a host of others, you will realise that we are not ripe for state police in Nigeria. I have not seen any state government that is mature enough to handle state police. You go to any state and talk to the opposition there, you will see the kind of stories you will take away.If the governors are saying the local governments are not mature enough to handle their affairs and they have to usurp their constitutional responsibility, I beg to say that they are also not ripe enough to take the challenge that would come with state police. They too should wait to grow up.But we need a framework that will make policing more efficient and effective in Nigeria but that does not mean the states should take over. These governors that cannot manage state electoral agencies; there is none of them who has conducted credible local government election, you now want to give them the power of life and death' They will mismanage it.
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