Apostle Anselm Madubuko is the founder of Revival Assembly Ministries International and President of New Anointing World Outreach (NAWO). In this interview with CHRIS IREKAMBA, the Apostle speaks on pastors owning private jet, the Igbo Osu caste system, his rumoured marriage, Boko Haram insurgency, and other issues. Excerpts.What are religious leaders doing about the Osu caste system practised among the Igbo'We have been preaching against it. This Osu thing is evil, the practise is demonic, but then, you can't force anybody to change his or her views about it. We have said it over and over that the practise is wrong because we are all one in the Lord. The blood of Jesus Christ has washed us and there is no more Osu. You cannot do anything, but to pray for the people to fear the Lord. It doesn't take a programme to do anything; it's a personal thing. There is no religious leader that is in support of the system. What I'm saying is that after preaching against it, it's left for the people involved to stop the practise. I cannot come and say you must marry this person or that person; so, it boils down to people's decision.Even after organising crusades, holding programmes and bringing traditional rulers together to talk about it, the people's decision, at the end of the day, will be upheld. I think if the traditional rulers are saved, then it will be different. There's nothing like Osu or Ohu and all that in Christ. Osu or Ohu thing is Satan's wickedness against the people; it is another way of manifesting his wickedness. All the belief about Osu is rubbish and will have no effect on anyone who marries them.How true is the saying that 'we don't have prophets, but prayer contractors in the country''That is true. And the only way to reverse the trend is through revival. When the fear of God is not in your heart, you can do anything for money; you can even take money from people for prayers and prophecy. Religious leaders have failed the nation; we've romanced iniquity; we've romanced lawlessness; we've lost our voice. And as such can no longer rebuke the people who need to be rebuked.What's your take on Pastors acquiring private jets'If you give me a private jet, I will sell it. Maybe, those Pastors that have them are in need of them, but if you give me one, I will sell it; that is the truth, it's not my priority.What's your idea of succession in the church' Have you given it a thought'You don't sit down to plan these things. I didn't start this church. God just said start and we started, so, the day He tells me handover to this person, I will do just that. It wasn't Adeboye that started the Redeemed Christian Church of God. Church is a spiritual thing, but we try to make it look as if it's a family thing. It's not a family business. Most times, it appears so because the wife is always the closest to the founder or head. These days, it's had to find faithful people, but thank God, He has given us some faithful ones. There was a time it was hard to trust people around you. So, how can you give something to somebody you don't even trust' It's a spiritual movement and you don't just decide, who to give it to. I'm telling you, if tomorrow, God tells me, 'son give this thing to this person,' I will gladly do it. I love my apostolic work more than pastoring. In the past 12 or 13 years, I have imparted on people in Eastern Europe, I'm excited doing that. I love the evangelistic thing more than pastoring that is what I'm trying to say.Why take the title Apostle and not Pastor, Reverend, Bishop or Archbishop'I started as a Pastor. God called me to be a pastor and having done that for about nine to 10 years, He made me an Apostle. God told me to go to Russia, Eastern Europe, and to other nations. I went there to help the church because the five folds ministry in the Bible. We were told about the pastor, the evangelist, the apostle, the prophet and the teacher; these are the five folds ministries that God has given us to build and edify the church. I'm just fulfilling it; so, it's not about the title or what I'm doing at this time. I didn't go there by myself; God took me from here to those places. I didn't know anybody in Russia, I went to preach in Ethiopia in October 1999 and after doing that, I went back to my room in the hotel, when four people came to see me. Only one of them could speak English language, and they invited me to their country. They said 'they are from Latvia former Soviet,' I said I'm not interested. I just turned down the request and they left. But, I felt within me that God sent them. You can't turn them because you don't like Russia. Were it to be America or Europe you will be happy this is what I said within me. So, I ran after them. When they came back, they said, 'we saw your ministry and that is what we need, we need an apostolic breakthrough anointing because we are just coming out of Communism, we need this power of God to help us in our nation,' that was how I went to the country in 1999. I didn't know that movement was going to shift my entire life. When I got to Latvia, I saw other ministries in Ukraine, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland, Germany, then Russia. Russia is huge and they are saying 'come, come' so, I didn't choose to go there, but I still do our local apostolic work. Recently, I held a crusade in Umuahia and Aba; and every January I, I organise crusade in my village, Ihiala, Anambra State.What were your experiences in Russia like'There is a great difference over there; they are very hungry. They are excited about God; so, it's much more interesting there. If people are hungry, it becomes easier to teach them. Nigerians are over fed; we have all kinds of teachers.How did you come about Azusa'In 1904, a one-eyed black man called William Seymour was used by God to usher in the first major revival in the world in a place called Azusa Street in California. And my passion is to see revival not just in churches but to ensure that people feel God, people feel Jesus, it's not a religion; it's something that is real. When there is a revival in Lagos, for instance, kidnappers won't be able to carry anybody because the atmosphere will make it impossible for anybody to do any harm. We need the fear of God in our streets, in Aso Rock, in the Senate and in the people. That is my dream, I just believe that one day, God will show us mercy, visit us and that is what we are praying for.What are your views on Boko Haram insurgency and how best could government curtail them'I understand how President Jonathan feels about the insurgency. The situation is complex because members of the group are faceless. Nobody knows them; so, it's very difficult to handle. I don't know what people who are blaming the President want him to do. My advice, however, is that we should step up in our intelligence information gathering. You can't fight people you do not know. Warfare has gone beyond shooting people; it's only through intelligence that you can unveil them. Our intelligence system is very poor; in fact, we can't say we have any in the country. It was through intelligence gathering and use of surveillance gadgets that the US was able to know where Osama Bin Laden was hiding. Modern warfare entails the use of technology and there is no limit to its use.I don't know if the amnesty talk is true. But really, if it is, who is government going to give the money' You discover that as government is discussing with representatives of the group, different places are being bombed; so, who are you giving amnesty to' If the people are not unveiled, a group of people may claim to be members of the sect and take all the money while the mayhem continues.Could our sins be the cause of the spate of insecurity, in the country'It's not limited to Nigeria; it's a worldwide thing. There is terror everywhere, as evil is daily on the increase across the globe. So, it's only God that can stop it.What should religious leaders like you be doing'Nothing. But to pray and intercede for nations.But Nigerians have been praying'We have to do more; we've not done enough that is what that means. We can't just stop praying until we see something happen.With all the churches and mosques around, are you saying we haven't done enough'It's not about churches. Most churches are not just there for God, but for the people who found them. They are not in God's agenda because they are carrying out their pastors' agenda. So, it's not about churches, it's about God showing us mercy.Your church has been on ground for 22 years; what are the challenges'We are dealing with people with their different ideas, but God has been faithful. We've seen people leave and others come; we've seen the good, the bad and the ugly; and we thank God that we are still here.How many branches do you have'I don't know about branches, I don't count those things and I don't feel comfortable counting members.What could be the reasons of some pastors being skeptical having branches'There is no problem having branches; for some people, it's very easy. But for me, it's not very easy to have branches. I have only three 'in Lekki, Abuja and Aba.Are you comfortable with that'That is not my calling; I have an apostolic calling. I go out to help people, who have already established churches. I have a base here and that is what God has told me, 'to go out there' and not to plant churches, but to help churches; work with them. For example, we have great ministry in Russia, where pastors work with me. All the pastors come together and we hold very strong apostolic meetings, they know I've not come to pick their members.You have passion for music, are you a singer or something'I like gospel music, l like good music. But now because of who I am, I find myself more into gospel music. I have an ear for good music though I tried to sing.Are you fulfilled as a man of God or would you have wished something else'I think I'm doing what I should do; I'm doing what I was born for' I thought I was born to design houses and build houses, but now I know I was born for this.Why did you disregard your parent's advice not to join cults in school'I didn't know God then, and we felt it was fun. We never had the guts to kill or shot people. We were a brunch of young boys having fun; at night, we would go into the bush make bonfire, drink and dance. We just had that fraternity thing. We would drive to Ibadan, UNIBEN, UNIPORT and others to have fun.Now that you are a Pastor, have you gone to campuses to speak against cultism'When I received Christ, the first place I went to preach the word was my school. Three months later, I held a crusade there and many received Christ. I thank God many got saved and they are still Christians as we speak.You mean you didn't bother to establish a campus fellowship there'No, that is not my assignment. I know my assignment.Could you share your relationship with your late wife of 28 years'I miss everything about her, our friendship and gossip. We normally talk about what really happened in the church, what people say or do, who's engaged to this or who is trying to divorce. We talked about things you cannot share with any other person. We had that kind of relation; it was very powerful. I was always eager to go home to find out what happened in the church, who called you and who didn't call. It's a different ball game now.Is there any plan to remarry'You know the press got me married many months ago. I saw it in the papers that I was getting married. I'm still on.Was it not the truth'There was nothing like that, I just saw in the papers that Apostle is set to remarry. That was about two months after my wife died and all the blogs carried it. Definitely, I will remarry, but the story making the rounds is not true.And your childrenI have three kids, a boy and two girls. They are all doing well. My kids are not perfect, but they love God and I thank God for them.You once said you have some challenges; what were they'They were human problems; disappointments, discouraging moments, fearful moments, bad news, gossips, break of fellowship, lack of commitments and others. They have come and gone. The Bible says, 'all things work together for good' so, all things work for our good; though all things may not be good things all the time, if the bad comes we still see it as good, because at the end it would result to something good.What did you do after giving your life to Christ'I got saved in my office in 1983; I used to work with Architect Tom Ikimi. There was a young boy, who was on fire at that time; he converted me. After he left, I began to look for a church to attend because there was a deep hunger in my spirit for the word of God, for fellowship and all that. I used to go from church to church; Pentecostal Church fellowships were not many at that time, but I ended up at Christ Chapel. I was there for three years and six months before moving to Household of God founded by my friend, Pastor Chris Okotie, who had just returned from the US. So, from Christ Chapel, I moved to Household of God, where I headed the Deliverance Ministry until I left to start my own ministry.You mean you just left without any problem'Well, there was, but we've forgotten all about that.What really was the issue'No problem. Maybe, I didn't want to start a church and God wanted me to' so He had to create a situation, where I was forced to leave.What exact was it'It's gone' it's something that happened many years ago. It's been overtaken by events.How is your relationship with Pastor Chris Okotie now'Excellent.What is NAWO all about'It stands for New Anointing World Outreach (NAWO), which is my International Evangelistic/Apostolic Ministry. I go out on outreach, hold crusades and revivals all over the world. It's different from Revival Assembly and it's not a church.
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